Tuesday, November 3, 2009

Comments About My Email

I’ve been engaged in a back and forth in my comments on I Called Out Dr. P. It was getting kind of long so I brought it over here. I wasn’t thrilled to have to back up some of my assertions but I have to thank him for keeping me honest and compelling me to try to put my money where my mouth was.

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I’d never heard of any relationship between carrots and HIV so I googled it and I can assure you that there is more evidence supporting a link between vaccines and autism than there is between carrots and HIV.

But taking your point seriously, the onus is on drug companies to prove that their products are safe. In the US, vaccines and other drugs have to be approved by the FDA. And unfortunately, that doesn’t always weed out unsafe products. The rotavirus vaccine approved in 1998 was withdrawn from the market about a year later because of serious reactions. I’m sure you’ve heard of the recalls of Vioxx and Meridia. Pharmaceutical companies, too, concede that their products cause harm. They try to downplay risks but list side effects on their packaging materials.

“The VICP was established to ensure an adequate supply of vaccines, stabilize vaccine costs, and establish and maintain an accessible and efficient forum for individuals found to be injured by certain vaccines. The VICP is a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system for resolving vaccine injury claims that provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines.”

Consumers pay a little extra for every shot, that money is collected. If you’re interested in finding out more here is a link. http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

Thus pharmaceutical companies and the American government both agree that vaccines can cause harm. I think the real question is how much disability/deaths are acceptable based on value provided/lives saved.

I’m grateful that when someone is sick often there is an antibiotic or medicine that can potentially save their life. One of my friends would have died last Sunday without antibiotics and first world medicine. But the opposite sometimes happens, the drug or vaccine, given with good intentions, causes damage or death.

I don’t see vaccines as an either/or issue. Vaccines are not good OR bad. I see more value in some vaccines than others. I live in Massachusetts. Malaria vaccines aren’t needed here but they are desperately needed in other parts of the world. On certain islands 93% of the population has or has had hepatitis B. The risk factors for children developing hepatitis B are very high. In the US, it is spread primarily though sexual activity and drug use. Risk factors are different. Is it logical to treat children in both places identically?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hepatitis-b/DS00398/DSECTION=risk-factors

This is the part of the discussion that I think gets drown out. We know that certain members of society have genetic predispositions to developing Tay Saks, Wilsons Disease or other genetic disorders. I think there is very strong evidence that autism has a genetic component.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/dca-dea/publications/healthy_dev_partb_8-eng.php

Based on genetic differences in individuals it is logical to assume that people will react differently to drugs, toxins, foods, vaccines, etc. I argue that a small subset of the population because of genetic factors and other environmental influences react differently to vaccines than typical children. Parents began suspecting vaccines when children began regressing into autism shortly after receiving them. (I understand coincidence and that correlation doesn’t equal causation.) But I’ll also say that for both my sons to become autistic two weeks after the same series of shots is one hell of a coincidence! It’s also interesting that their cousins reacted to vaccines (developed ASD) and both the doctor and parents agreed they shouldn’t get that vaccine again.

As for Bernadine Healy former head of the NIH stating that she found credible published, peer-reviewed scientific studies that support the idea of an association between vaccines and autism. In listening to her again I think she may be referring to the mice study out of Columbia University and Burbacher’s primate study.

Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent.

“Autoimmune disease-sensitive SJL/J mice showed growth delay; reduced locomotion; exaggerated response to novelty; and densely packed, hyperchromic hippocampal neurons with altered glutamate receptors and transporters. Strains resistant to autoimmunity, C57BL/6J and BALB/cJ, were not susceptible. These findings implicate genetic influences and provide a model for investigating thimerosal-related neurotoxicity.”

Here’s the link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15184908

Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

“There was a much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of thimerosal monkeys than in the brains of MeHg monkeys (up to 71% vs. 10%). Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys. Interestingly, the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.”

Update: To Further explain the study:

This study shows that yes, as expected, ethyl mercury leaves the blood stream sooner. But where does it go? It’s not all excreted. The interesting part of the study is what happens to the mercury within the body. Within the body thimerosal is broken up and turns into inorganic mercury in the brain! The proportion of inorganic mercury in the brain is up to 71% in the monkeys who received thimerosal vs. 10% in the monkeys that received methyl mercury. This means that thimerosal left the bloodstream sooner and more of it changed into inorganic mercury in the brain. The study also mentions the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.” (Dealkylation refers to the process of removing the ethyl or methyl chain thus transforming it to its inorganic form.) The monkeys are excreting more of the methyl mercury than the ethyl mercury. More of the mercury from the thimerosal is deposited in the brain and kidneys.

“Although the initial distribution volume of total Hg is similar for the two groups, a biphasic exponential decline in total blood Hg is observed only after im injections of thimerosal. This suggests continual distribution into and localization in tissue sites over time. It is relevant to note that the kidney-to-blood concentration gradient of total Hg is much higher in the thimerosal monkeys than in the MeHg monkeys (mean ± SE, 95.1 ± 10 vs. 5.8 ± 0.6). The second slower phase of washout could also represent the gradual biotransformation of ethylmercury (the presumed principal organic form of Hg after thimerosal administration) to Hg-containing metabolites that have a different tissue distribution or are more slowly eliminated.”

Once the thimerosal has changed into inorganic mercury it is deposited in tissues. Where it remains to causes damage. Once in the inorganic form it cannot cross the blood brain barrier.

This is very important because humans cannot excrete inorganic mercury once it is deposited in the brain tissue. We can only excrete organic. Thus because ethylmercury (thimerosal) leaves the bloodstream more quickly than methlmercury less of it can be excreted before attaching as inorganic mercury to the brain, nervous system, wherever. Most studies on mercury have been done on methlmercury rather than ethylmercury.

Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/

An explanations of inorganic and organic mercury:

The distinction is the type of chemical bonding. Inorganic mercury refers to mercury that is in the metallic state or is a charged ion (a ‘salt,’ such as mercury chloride). Organic mercury is mercury that is chemically bonded to a carbon chain molecule – methylmercury and ethylmercury being the simplest organic mercury compounds (which also include thimerosal). Inorganic mercury forms (metal, vapors, mercury salts) are less toxic than organic mercury because it doesn’t absorb easily into the body – if ingested most passes through the digestive tract. Organic mercury is readily absorbed by tissues and transported around the body.

I don’t know that these were the studies Dr. Healy was referring too, but I suspect they might be among them. Did you notice that Dr. Healy said in the interview that a memo went around the NIM in 2004 saying, “Do not pursue susceptibility groups. Don’t look for those patents, those children, who may be vulnerable.”? She takes issue with that, as do I. She said that the NIH believed that parents would be scared away from vaccination if they were found to cause autism in a group. I guess I don’t sound like as much of a crackpot for saying studies looking into the connection between autism and vaccines really haven’t been done if the former head of the National Institutes of Health agrees!

And for your question of if I intended to use the paper as evidence that there are safety concerns with vaccines. No, I think you proved your point. I knew from the beginning it wasn’t the one I was looking for but I got lazy.

And I will check out the website you recommend. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=466

If you are honestly interested in finding out more read David Kirby's Evidence of Harm.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Regarding the safety of carrots. Last I checked the government was not mandating that every child eat 30 carrots before they turn 2 years old. However, the government has mandated that many vaccinations. Marcy

Brian Lynchehaun said...

Whether or not something being mandated is relevant to this discussion turns entirely on whether or not the mandated action is harmful.

If carrots are not harmful, then it doesn't matter if the govt mandates that everyone eat x carrots a day.

Similarly, if vaccines are not harmful, the it doesn't matter if the govt mandates x vaccines during childhood.


If they are harmful, then there's a problem.


The study on Mercury in the monkey-brains is interesting (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/). It looks like a pretty solid study, well constructed, and seems to do what it aims to do.

Actually, I've organised an MD to give a talk on H1N1 at my University (UBC), to talk about vaccines in general (plus adjuvants, and preservatives and whatnot). I'll point him at this study, and see what his take on it is.

Life as the mother of 4 said...

Th mouse study is also important because it was the autoimmune disease-sensitive mice that were effected by thimerosal. Not the ones with typical immune systems. Many children with autism have a family history of autoimmune problems.

Question: what if the government is mandating vaccines that only damage some children?

Brian Lynchehaun said...

I'd been meaning to get back to this, but I've been up to my eyes with school work, 'n' stuff.

Alarming point: "This is very important because humans cannot excrete inorganic mercury."

What?

That's actually completely false.

Organic mercury is so named because it's absorbed into our tissues, and does horrific damage. That's why the Hg in Tuna is regulated, because the MethylHg breaks down into higher quantities of organic Hg.

Inorganic isn't absorbed into our system, and is water soluble.


Look, go back to that study that you pointed me at, with the Hg in the brain (and I quote): "The initial and terminal half-life of Hg in blood after thimerosal exposure was 2.1 and 8.6 days, respectively, which are significantly shorter than the elimination half-life of Hg after MeHg exposure at 21.5 days"

This means your body gets rid of the Hg *way* faster if it's EthylHg. MethylHg kicks around your system for 21.5 days.


I don't normally refer to a Wiki, but in this particular case it coallates a number of links on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning#Elemental_mercury

The source for the low toxicity of inorganic Hg (relatve to organic Hg): Langford NJ, Ferner RE (1999). "Toxicity of mercury" (PDF). Journal of Human Hypertension 13 (10): 651–6. doi:10.1038/sj.jhh.1000896. http://www.nature.com/jhh/journal/v13/n10/pdf/1000896a.pdf. Retrieved 2007-07-31.

The two sources for toxicity of organic Hg: # Stock A (1926). "Die Gefaehrlichkeit des Quecksilberdampfes". Zeitschrift für angewandte Chemie 39: 461–466. doi:10.1002/ange.19260391502.
# ^ Hunter D, Bomford RR, Russell DS (1940). "Poisoning by methylmercury compounds". Quart. J. Med. 9: 193–213.


If you have a source that contradicts this, I'd like to read it.

Brian Lynchehaun said...

Regarding the government mandating vaccines that only damage some children:

For the sake of argument, I'll assume that that is the case.

What are the choices? 'Yes' to all vaccines vs 'No' to all vaccines? I don't think that's what you want to argue.


Let's assume that even one vaccine, given as is, is the cause of rise of autism.

Vaccines save lives. That's a matter of fact.

If we stop administering the vaccine to 'change the badness', kids will die. In the choice between autism vs death, the choice is autism.

If we make the choice a 'personal choice' for each parent, not knowing the sum cause of autism, parents will avoid the only known part of the equation: the vaccines. This will lead to increased death (and is already leading to increase in deaths http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7872541.stm ).


If you are the only vaccinated person in your community, you may as well not be vaccinated as your immune system will be overwhelmed by the sheer number of exposures you experience. As such, vaccination simply can't be a matter of personal choice.


Now... all that said... If there were a clear causal relationship between an identified genetic marker plus some compound in the vaccines that lead directly to autism: those kids should be opted out of the vaccination program, or an alternate way of delivering the same protection to them should be devised.

But there is no such evidence at this point in time, and people are looking for it (and no, I'm not talking about Generation Rescue, who have funded zero research to date).


Given our current state of knowledge, and certainty of the rise of infant/child mortality if vaccines are stopped vs the tenuously speculative claim that vaccines are connected to the rise in autism diagnoses, a government mandate of vaccines is a necessary thing.

Life as the mother of 4 said...

Someone posted an explanation of the differences between inorganic and organic mercury here. http://lifeasthemotherof4.blogspot.com/2009/11/embarking-on-new-career.html

The distinction is the type of chemical bonding. Inorganic mercury refers to mercury that is in the metallic state or is a charged ion (a ‘salt,’ such as mercury chloride). Organic mercury is mercury that is chemically bonded to a carbon chain molecule – methylmercury and ethylmercury being the simplest organic mercury compounds (which also include thimerosal). Inorganic mercury forms (metal, vapors, mercury salts) are less toxic than organic mercury because it doesn’t absorb easily into the body – if ingested most passes through the digestive tract. Organic mercury is readily absorbed by tissues and transported around the body.

I should have been more specific about the study. Scientists have argued that because ethyl mercury leaves the blood stream much sooner than methyl mercury it was safer.

This study shows that yes, as expected, ethyl mercury leaves the blood stream sooner. But where does it go? It’s not all excreted. The interesting part of the study is what happens to the mercury within the body. Within the body thimerosal is broken up and turns into inorganic mercury in the brain! The proportion of inorganic mercury in the brain is up to 71% in the monkeys who received thimerosal vs. 10% in the monkeys that received methyl mercury. This means that thimerosal left the bloodstream sooner and more of it changed into inorganic mercury in the brain. The study also mentions the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.” (Dealkylation refers to the process of removing the ethyl or methyl chain thus transforming it to its inorganic form.) The monkeys are excreting more of the methyl mercury than the ethyl mercury. More of the mercury from the thimerosal is deposited in the brain and kidneys.

“Although the initial distribution volume of total Hg is similar for the two groups, a biphasic exponential decline in total blood Hg is observed only after im injections of thimerosal. This suggests continual distribution into and localization in tissue sites over time. It is relevant to note that the kidney-to-blood concentration gradient of total Hg is much higher in the thimerosal monkeys than in the MeHg monkeys (mean ± SE, 95.1 ± 10 vs. 5.8 ± 0.6). The second slower phase of washout could also represent the gradual biotransformation of ethylmercury (the presumed principal organic form of Hg after thimerosal administration) to Hg-containing metabolites that have a different tissue distribution or are more slowly eliminated.”

Once the thimerosal has changed into inorganic mercury it is deposited in tissues. Where it remains to causes damage. Once in the inorganic form it cannot cross the blood brain barrier.

Life as the mother of 4 said...

Analysis of Risk

Vaccines do save lives. The question is how many. (Often people add in third world statistics; which is a dishonest argument in a first world. Since I live in a first world and my risk factors are different I will argue this from a first world perspective.) The US is fortunate to have clean water, sanitation, and soap. We have staffed hospitals, pain medicine, drugs, antibiotics, diagnostic machines, laboratories … Thus our risk factors are different than they would be in a third world country where vaccines do save more lives than they do in first world countries.

The CDC answers the question: What would happen if we stopped vaccinations?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

One example: “Before measles immunization was available, nearly everyone in the U.S. got measles. An average of 450 measles-associated deaths were reported each year between 1953 and 1963.” 1,000 developed chronic disability from measles encephalitis, 48,000 were hospitalized.

US population in 1950: 150,520,798. Basically they had 1 in a million chance of dying from the measles a year, 6 to 7 in a million chance of disability. Our population is roughly double this now. Obviously, death rates from other diseases would increase total deaths from all disease; and hospitalizations, time off work, etc. would cost a lot of money.

Since, we’re assuming vaccines trigger autism we’ll compare rates.

New statistics are 1 in 91 children will develop autism. Boys are 4 times as likely as girls so the numbers for boys are much higher. The lifetime per capita incremental societal cost of autism is $3.2 million.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17404130

There is evidence linking vaccines to autism – enough to convince the former head of the National Institutes of Health (the US’ medical research agency) to publicly state “credible published, peer-reviewed scientific studies that support the idea of an association between vaccines and autism.” Why don’t you find that credible?

Brian Lynchehaun said...

"Once the thimerosal has changed into inorganic mercury it is deposited in tissues. Where it remains to causes damage. Once in the inorganic form it cannot cross the blood brain barrier."

If this is true, then when thimerosal was removed from vaccines, then the rate of autism diagnosis would have dropped off.

This didn't happen.

What is your explanation for that?

Brian Lynchehaun said...

"There is evidence linking vaccines to autism – enough to convince the former head of the National Institutes of Health (the US’ medical research agency) to publicly state “credible published, peer-reviewed scientific studies that support the idea of an association between vaccines and autism.” Why don’t you find that credible?"

Because it's an Appeal to Authority.

If she, as a scientist, has found studies that are compelling: direct us to those studies.

On a contentious matter such as this, I am not simply going to accept someone's word on the topic. If they have been convinced by a study, then I'd like to read that study. I want to make sure that they're not simply biased, or making a mistake. Show me the data, not someone's opinion.

Life as the mother of 4 said...

The simple answer is that thimerosal hasn't been removed from all vaccines. It's still in the flu shot and the RhoGAM shot which is given to pregnant women, and it's used in the process of vaccine manufacturing. And there was a supply of thimerosal containing vaccines that were used after the change. (I have a kid who got a thimerosal containing vaccine a year after it was publicly stated to have been removed from vaccines.)

But it is a good point that most of the thimerosal has been removed and the numbers keep rising. I think mercury is one of the triggering factors but not the only one.

Perhaps some kids are more at risk of damage from mercury than others. Regressive autism is different from the autism of twenty years ago. Many of these kids' body don't remove or regulate metals appropriately(high copper, low zinc levels), GI problems including chronic constipation or diarrhea, food allergies, low glutathione levels, etc.

I like to describe what happened to Will as a perfect storm. (I hope you've read the book.) He was primed because of reflux & food allergies. He developed chronic ear infections at five months which led to overuse of antibiotics (preventative antibiotics, no less, grrr!)This threw off his intestinal system as the good flora was killed and bad replaced it. He received all his vaccines while on antibiotics. His gastrointestinal system went into free fall and he developed chronic diarrhea and autism. It took four years working with a pediatric gastroenterologist, a DAN doctor, and a casein and gluten free diet to fix some of the damage.

I think Will's severity was determined by everything working together. If he hadn't been on antibiotics would the shots have even effected him? If he didn't have GI problems would the shots have triggered autism? I think everything came together and worked against him.

The weakness of our argument is that we don't have enough data. But please don't confuse the lack of data with proof that our argument is false.

And remember who controls research dollars and picks the studies to fund.

Fair enough about the appeal to authority argument. I like to use her because the "pro-vaccine" crowd says we're stupid and that "science" has declared the debate closed. I like to figuratively "threaten them with their own queen."

Ultimately, there are no short cuts here. I suggest you sign up for http://www.sarnet.org/ Lennie collects everything he can find about autism regardless of side. Sign up for only the studies if you wish. Understanding both sides of this debate will take a lot of time.

Brian Lynchehaun said...

"But it is a good point that most of the thimerosal has been removed and the numbers keep rising. I think mercury is one of the triggering factors but not the only one."

That's not backed up by the data.

And I'm not solely talking about the US, but also the rest of the world. Mercury has been removed from vaccines in some coutries for over a decade now, and the autism rates aren't changing.

Claiming that inorganic mercury is bad requires one to show that it's bad. Postulating that it could be the cause of autism is absolutely fine: then you need to check against countries that have removed mercury from their vaccines.


Even if 'all' mercury hasn't been removed from the vaccines in the US, are even half of the vaccines being given right now containing mercury? To the best I can find out (mostly mentioned in passing in blogs, I can't find data on this), we're talking single-digit percetages of vaccines *might* have thimerosal still.

Even if 20% of the vaccines have mercury: if mercury is a causal factor for autism, then there should have been a massive drop-off in autism rates in those countries that ditched mercury.

There hasn't been.

Even if it's a combinatory factor, by limiting that factor, the rates should drop.

If they don't drop, then it's not a factor.

That's the causal analysis.

"And remember who controls research dollars and picks the studies to fund."

I'm sorry, but conspiracy theories don't count as either data, evidence, or a good argument.

How much money is spent through Autism One or Generation Rescue? How much money is sucked out of parents through pseudoscience and quackery? (Chelation, and such)

There's money enough to be found to do a study. There are no "research dollars", there's simply dollars that people can choose to spend on research, or not.


That's where credibility goes out the window, claiming that the data exists, just "they" don't want to fund it.

The person/team that demonstrates a causal connection between Autism and anything will have a golden ticket for life.

To claim that this research is being prohibited, world-wide, affecting *every* new science graduate, *every* new business graduate, is to make a claim that 'outrageous' doesn't even begin to cover.

I'll keep an eye on the Schafer Report.

Life as the mother of 4 said...

Regarding my claim “that inorganic mercury is bad;” let me make this perfectly clear. Inorganic and organic mercury causes damage and/or death in mammals. All mercury exposure is bad, particularly for organic mercury in utero (despite lack of toxicity data).

Are you arguing that mercury is not harmful or that it’s neutral?
Here is some data, but there’s plenty more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19850321?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

http://www.dhh.la.gov/offices/publications/pubs-205/Mercury_for_Health_Providers_Hg_Final.pdf

http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/PublicHealth/ImmunizationSafety/ElDahr.ashx

A good place to look for information about vaccine ingredients are from the manufactures. I’ve called and found them helpful in the past.

I’d love to see your data on rates of autism in other countries and the corresponding levels of thimerosal in their vaccines.

I don’t know how much money Autism One or Generation Rescue spends on research. The Federal Government spends most of the research dollars through the NIH. Universities spend some. Most of the money has been spent on genetics research, with not a lot to show for it. But the US Government is funding some new research so hopefully we may get some answers in the future.

Dr. Healy said that a memo circulated around the NIH telling them not to pursue susceptible groups. Perhaps that’s something you should take up with her.

Chelation is a process that removes heavy metals and/or minerals from the body. It’s an FDA approved treatment for lead poisoning.

http://www.webmd.com/balance/tc/chelation-therapy-topic-overview

We also spend money on speech therapy, ABA, adult diapers, private swim lessons, specialized babysitters, saving for our child’s future, lawyers, evaluations, dentists (because special needs dentists won’t take our perfectly good dental insurance) …. Do you really want to go down the road of judging what we spend on what?

“To claim that this research is being prohibited, world-wide, affecting *every* new science graduate, *every* new business graduate, is to make a claim that 'outrageous' doesn't even begin to cover.”

It’s also ridiculous. That’s why I didn’t say it.

Marcy said...

Mercury does not come at us only thru vaccines. Mercury enters the food chain thru fish and thru farming. Coal burning plants send mercury into the atmosphere where it lands in the water, on farmlands and gets breathed into our bodies. We eat fish that absorb mercury from eating smaller fish that already contain mercury that was absorbed into the water and sediment. Food is grown in fields where mercury has polluted the air and the water supply. Everyone absorbs mercury daily, some more, some less.

Studies have been done in Texas to see where the coal plants are and where the highest number of cases of Autism are found. There is a very high correlation.

At least one study was also done to see if fish consumption had an effect on the number of cases of Autism. Fish consumption and dental amalgams (contain mercury) were found to correlate with blood levels of mercury.

I won't spend time arguing organic vs inorganic mercury or ethyl vs methyl mercury because I don't have the background. However, I will say that mercury is a known neurotoxin and should be avoided when possible.

Mercury, is not the only problem in our environment, but it gets the most press.

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